Welcome to the first of Canyon Oak’s long-form conversation collection, The Philosophical Walk, inspired by the Philosopher's Path in Kyoto and the insights that a walk with a friend can bring.
“…I actually worry that we might be relatively unhealthy as a field. Not just not prioritizing health, but not doing a great job of taking care of our bodies.” - A
Where Ajay & Michelle ramble about...
Being sick as a doctor
What does “listen to your body” really mean?
Being sick during medical school and residency:
“My patient was worried about me, but no one else was.” - M
Why are doctors so bad at recognizing our own needs?
Interoception: the ability to be aware of internal sensations in the body, such as hunger, heart rate, pain, and temperature
What a doctor wants in a doctor
“I want a doctor who knows themselves, knows their body, can role model to me how to get to know my body, respect that, and isn’t bound to some of the dogma that they’ve just learned … through books. That they’ve thought about their own bodies, they’ve thought about other people’s bodies, their health, and can use that more broad-based understanding, plus their medical training to … inspire me.” - M
Nurturing relationships and learning from others’ expertise (physical therapists, nurses, specialists, etc.)
“I think there’s a lot to be said here around what the power is of bringing other people into the care relationship... And that we should really hold that close to our hearts. We should think of that as a really sacred thing that we’re sharing. And when we’re inviting other people into that relationship, whether it is a physical therapist, or a dietician, or a specialist, or a proceduralist... whoever it is… that I think we would want to feel confident about those people and those relationships. And you can’t really do that unless this is just a part of the work that you’re doing to get to know them and to understand what’s happening there and to not treat it like a separate world.” - A
“We’ve all had these moments where, from these conversations, you make a different decision. Or you get to make a decision that you wouldn’t have made otherwise, or it is so much more nuanced and thoughtful, and that inherently provides so much fulfillment to be like, ‘This is a badass decision! This is a sound, thoughtful decision that considers all of these different lenses and the patient’s wants and desires…’ because often as the primary we might know those a little bit more. It’s just quite incredible. Number one, that’s inherently fulfilling. Number two, we revisit this with patients all the time. … it becomes this kind of living, breathing part of their lives, which all of these decisions are...” - A
The elitist undertone of “practicing at the top of your license” and how it can kill curiosity and fun
Having fun within the system
“We have these digital technologies. Very easily we can be dehumanized by them. But we could use them to have fun and promote a certain culture and a certain vibe … that taking care of this person is fun. … It’s another tool of creating community and a certain energy.” - M
The group chat as the most powerful health technology
After medical training, how do we return back to the basic tenets of being human?
“How much about being a clinician is just about being a human in this world? We’re talking about all of these basic human needs, taking care of ourselves, building community within ourselves, what does it mean to feel cared about as a patient, and it’s … these simple fundamental things that I feel like we’re coming back to, that we get kind of far away from.” - A
“There is something there around us starting off [before training] in a place hopefully where we understood those tenets and how important they were to our own selves and probably to other people. And progressively getting further from that… maybe by necessity, who knows, doing our medical training, learning very specialized and specific tools. And the journey back towards understanding those basic tenets and now having a tool set to blend with it.” - M
Speakers:
Ajay Haryani [according to Michelle]: Ajay is an analytical, broad-minded, generous, and sensitive human. He is also a general internal medicine doctor and someone I trust to give thoughtful and informed insights about primary care innovation. He is a phenomenal communicator, which I think is rooted in a deep understanding of other human beings. I think he gets his primary fulfillment from serving and guiding others. I respect that he combines industry know-how, sharp clinical acumen, and a deep understanding of the messy, beautiful human side of all things.
Michelle-Linh Nguyen [according to Ajay]: Fundamentally, Michelle creates connection - from the level of the individual to the level of the community. She understands the human experience through a lens that favors depth, clarity, and - maybe most importantly - care. A combination of grounded values and playful deviance gives her the superpower to ask the hardest, most meaningful questions, and she is one of the only people I trust to answer them. The word “doctor” almost minimizes her therapeutic capacities - She is a healer in the truest sense.
Guitar: Colin Pyle
Audio mixing & editing: Ajay Haryani
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